Watch this powerful interview by Michel Martin (weekend host of All Things Considered [NPR]). She interviews Joel Hunter, pastor for about 25 years of a conservative megachurch in Florida. Now he leads a community resource network. Joel Hunter has been a long time conservative. In 2006, he was elected president of the Christian Coalition (the large, influential Religious Right political organization). But he quickly realized important differences with their agenda and he resigned before his presidency actually began. In 2008, he wrote a book called A NEW KIND OF CONSERVATIVE. He became a friend and frequent pastoral advisor for Barack Obama.
Forget about the issue of voting, how he speaks, has acted, etc etc; instead think about results realized under President Trump’s Administration to date that align ( that so an ethic of faith) and how that compares with previous same of either party??
I’m so encouraged to see your movement and others like it. I believe they are a huge step in the right direction towards reconciliation and healing in our country.
I would like to ask you what you think about my interpretation of what the Bible says about Christians’ duty with regard to secular law.
In 1 Cor. 5:12-13, Paul states:
12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside.
It is clear as he continues in chapter 6 that this judgment is referring not to an abstract passing of moral judgment, but taking real action to regulate behavior.
The implications of this seem crystal clear, but the vast majority of Christians in our country act in a way that does not acknowledge those implications. As citizens in a democracy, Christians have every right to engage within that framework to ensure that our government runs effectively, that their rights are not unduly infringed, and that the rights of others are protected as well.
However, in the case of abortion, I believe that Christians are attempting, in effect, to “judge those outside the church” and force them to adhere to their Christian moral principles. They do so with the noble (and valid) intention of protecting the rights of those without a voice to protect themselves, and to right what they believe is a grave moral wrong.
However, in this case, the nature of this third party, the fetus (and embryo), is not universally agreed upon. To a large degree, there are two general views on the nature of a fetus and the moral implications of terminating a pregnancy. Which view one holds is strongly correlated with whether one is a Christian. (It could be argued that the predominant view of Christians is not the only reasonable one a Christian may hold, but that is not necessary to prove for the primary argument to be valid.) If there were large agreement among society as a whole on the matter (or some aspect thereof), then I think Christians could feel confident seeking legislation that is reflective of their views.
However, in this case, those outside the church largely have a view contrary to that held by most Christians, or more accurately, believe that it is reasonable for one to hold a view on the matter which is opposed to the Christian view. Because of this, they feel that it is morally correct to allow others to make that determination for themselves.
Based upon the passage above from 1 Cor 5, Christians should recognize that they not only have no obligation to act to legally ban abortion, they also have no right (in that it would be against Biblical teachings, and infringe upon God’s rightful responsibility to judge those outside the church). This is not to argue that there is a special constraint Christians are under, which should not also be observed by every other member of our society as well, but only to support that this principle is in agreement with Biblical teaching.
Instead, Christians should commit themselves fully to promoting the kinds of actions (which you have rightly noted that Biden supports) that will serve to address the root causes which lead to women choosing to have an abortion. This will be more effective than a legal ban anyway, both in terms of reduction of abortions, and in overall improvement of outcomes for both women and children born to them. It will also be far more reflective of Christians fulfilling the commands to “love your neighbor as yourself” and to “look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.” And of course, if an effective consensus can be reached about particular limitations, such as on elective procedures in the third trimester for instance, Christians should take pride in supporting legislation to accomplish that.
I look forward to hearing your thoughts. I understand if you don’t wish to comment publicly in a way which might cause confusion regarding the platform you are heading. If that is the case, I believe you have my email address. Regardless, I appreciate what you are doing and wish you success.
Apparently Pastor Joel Hunter, along with this group you promote, ( as I have discoursed upon, discussed with in previous sharing) has lost his FIRST LOVE as he now votes for Biden/Harris (with the certain knowledge that the absolutely most liberal progressive candidate to date—Senator Harris— is but literally a breath away from the Oval Office as Joe Biden stumbles, staggers, and constantly confuses and loses himself; not too mention the daily “lids”, naps???) simply because he had been influenced to believe that Joe Biden “ can put together coalitions to doXYZ” and is not a divider of people!
First, please Dear Brothers and Brothet Joel Hunter now voting for Biden/HARRIS (remember, but literally, one breath away.....) you must, in order to be ethically and logically sound in your position and thinking, see and therefore admit that President Donald J. Trump and Administration did not cause “all this division” as you wrongly, yet so passionately accuse him of doing; no, sir! No one forced any of the rioters, looters, criminals who have been destroying and terrorizing, robbing and shooting ( eg. like the Brown Shirts of late 20s and early 30s Germany; now consider Dear Brothers who are truly acting like these same: Antifa, BLM, Seattle, Portland, Minneapolis, ad naseum ad finiteness , —so-called peaceful demonstrators all unified for Biden/Harris, nobody forced them out there to do what they have been, and continue to do—-they themselves acting upon their own sinful lusts and hatred, but as ultimately believing the lie of the Devil— is Satan not the Father of all same?! These immature, vicious, yes even loco, dear ones, though, as you and I, human beings on this Earth, souls created in the image of God Almighty, have been radicalized by the awful fruit of, just to mention one sower of such evil seed—Saul Alinsky—- are responsible for the ongoing division which permanent has marked an scarred our cities and their psyches; they are responsible, for this by their actions and words, but more so by their belief and philosophies to which they adhere and, more dangerously so, have acted upon!!
Secondly, that he has/is himself becoming more of a politician himself interested in/motivated by Biden/HARRIS (again, one heartbeat away....) who can, supposedly coalesce differing and disparate groups together under one unified tent, banner ( fill in here) unto the goal of a utopia to be realized under Democratic, liberal , progressive ideology leading to political machinations thus ultimately yielding administrative fiat, forget policy—- wake up: this by definition is Antichrist, is it not!
But, then this is all but politics and Joel Hunter, yourself, myself and so many the multitudes of professing Christians have become way too involved in the politics of this world. Remember. Please, who of all so-called Dividers came to Earth to be/was/is the Great Divider—our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ Who came to this world, this same world in which we now live and breathe and have our Being “not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance...brought a sword (eg. to cleave, to divide)....”
The question then becomes and is one of not politics and division which never in the history of the world has brought healing, but only division and destruction and death; but, of True Christianity, Faith in Jesus Christ Who is the One True God in human flesh And Only Redeemer of mankind through the saving power, life changing power of His Precious and Holy shed blood upon the Cross of Calvary sealed for eternity past with His Glorious Resurrection from the grace and now seated at the Right Hand of God the Father forever ,waiting longingly and lovingly for us, His Children, to for God’s sake, please, to get our act, as true born-again Believers, together here on this Earth into which we were born by God’s ordaining foreknowledge, whole there is yet time and be the testimony and witness He longs for us to become; dividers, through the Power of the Gospel—the one and only Gospel , Gospel of Jesus Christ, Savior if the World, of those who believe and receive Him as Savior , then Lord of our lives, not some theoretically-sociologically man-created social gospel (another topic for another time) but the only remedy to the ills of this age—the Great Physician, truly divides as He says “suffer the little children to come unto Me!” And, not causing them “to stumble...(knowing full well the penalty of same by God’s Spoken Holy Word) as you are continuing to do through the fallacious, yay dangerous promulgation of support for Biden/HARRIS—/ for so many obvious reasons! I plead with you my Brethren cease from your misinformed and misguiding ways. The division you falsely , erroneously accuse President Trump and his Administration of is just that , and more so as causing little ones—Believers—-to stumble is wrong, and damaging; but, the failure on your part, my part, our part as those who profess Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord, true born-again Believers, as opposed to those by nomenclature and a false sense of goodness inherent in man as so many believe, to justly, savingly divide by rightly dividing the Word of Truth and as our Savior did to divide by His Gospel in thought, word, and deed is, indeed, shameful for to become inebriated ( yes, correct, apt word choice here!) in this world’s system ( eg.politics and actively working to merge our faith into politics—“an all compassing ethics of faith”) is shameful to our testimony, more so to Our Savior and Lord!
I plead with you to stop and consider how damaging your political actions are to the cause and people of Christ, and to those unbelievers who see and hear and know how and what we are like: many times and sadly so myself no different from them. How then are they to be saved sans the sword of the Gospel of Jesus Christ whiche divides asunder the wound of which may only be healed by same!! Please!!
Pro-life evangelicals for abortion. What a contradiction. It's especially frustrating since Trump has been the most pro-life president ever. So these people are in bed with the same people who say that if a baby survives an abortion (attempted murder), he or she should be left to die.
It is the goats being separated from the sheep. That’s what this season is about. The goats and wolves have hidden long enough amongst the sheep. Now the LORD is exposing them one by one. After which He will make a spectacle of them because Donald Trump will win while they in return will get the due judgement for those who mislead the sheep unless they repent.
Forget about the issue of voting, how he speaks, has acted, etc etc; instead think about results realized under President Trump’s Administration to date that align ( that so an ethic of faith) and how that compares with previous same of either party??
https://www.instagram.com/tv/CGV_Jm0JJhV/?igshid=1liuksgiej291
Dr Sider,
I’m so encouraged to see your movement and others like it. I believe they are a huge step in the right direction towards reconciliation and healing in our country.
I would like to ask you what you think about my interpretation of what the Bible says about Christians’ duty with regard to secular law.
In 1 Cor. 5:12-13, Paul states:
12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside.
It is clear as he continues in chapter 6 that this judgment is referring not to an abstract passing of moral judgment, but taking real action to regulate behavior.
The implications of this seem crystal clear, but the vast majority of Christians in our country act in a way that does not acknowledge those implications. As citizens in a democracy, Christians have every right to engage within that framework to ensure that our government runs effectively, that their rights are not unduly infringed, and that the rights of others are protected as well.
However, in the case of abortion, I believe that Christians are attempting, in effect, to “judge those outside the church” and force them to adhere to their Christian moral principles. They do so with the noble (and valid) intention of protecting the rights of those without a voice to protect themselves, and to right what they believe is a grave moral wrong.
However, in this case, the nature of this third party, the fetus (and embryo), is not universally agreed upon. To a large degree, there are two general views on the nature of a fetus and the moral implications of terminating a pregnancy. Which view one holds is strongly correlated with whether one is a Christian. (It could be argued that the predominant view of Christians is not the only reasonable one a Christian may hold, but that is not necessary to prove for the primary argument to be valid.) If there were large agreement among society as a whole on the matter (or some aspect thereof), then I think Christians could feel confident seeking legislation that is reflective of their views.
However, in this case, those outside the church largely have a view contrary to that held by most Christians, or more accurately, believe that it is reasonable for one to hold a view on the matter which is opposed to the Christian view. Because of this, they feel that it is morally correct to allow others to make that determination for themselves.
Based upon the passage above from 1 Cor 5, Christians should recognize that they not only have no obligation to act to legally ban abortion, they also have no right (in that it would be against Biblical teachings, and infringe upon God’s rightful responsibility to judge those outside the church). This is not to argue that there is a special constraint Christians are under, which should not also be observed by every other member of our society as well, but only to support that this principle is in agreement with Biblical teaching.
Instead, Christians should commit themselves fully to promoting the kinds of actions (which you have rightly noted that Biden supports) that will serve to address the root causes which lead to women choosing to have an abortion. This will be more effective than a legal ban anyway, both in terms of reduction of abortions, and in overall improvement of outcomes for both women and children born to them. It will also be far more reflective of Christians fulfilling the commands to “love your neighbor as yourself” and to “look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.” And of course, if an effective consensus can be reached about particular limitations, such as on elective procedures in the third trimester for instance, Christians should take pride in supporting legislation to accomplish that.
I look forward to hearing your thoughts. I understand if you don’t wish to comment publicly in a way which might cause confusion regarding the platform you are heading. If that is the case, I believe you have my email address. Regardless, I appreciate what you are doing and wish you success.
Thank you,
Jonathan Robinson
Apparently Pastor Joel Hunter, along with this group you promote, ( as I have discoursed upon, discussed with in previous sharing) has lost his FIRST LOVE as he now votes for Biden/Harris (with the certain knowledge that the absolutely most liberal progressive candidate to date—Senator Harris— is but literally a breath away from the Oval Office as Joe Biden stumbles, staggers, and constantly confuses and loses himself; not too mention the daily “lids”, naps???) simply because he had been influenced to believe that Joe Biden “ can put together coalitions to doXYZ” and is not a divider of people!
First, please Dear Brothers and Brothet Joel Hunter now voting for Biden/HARRIS (remember, but literally, one breath away.....) you must, in order to be ethically and logically sound in your position and thinking, see and therefore admit that President Donald J. Trump and Administration did not cause “all this division” as you wrongly, yet so passionately accuse him of doing; no, sir! No one forced any of the rioters, looters, criminals who have been destroying and terrorizing, robbing and shooting ( eg. like the Brown Shirts of late 20s and early 30s Germany; now consider Dear Brothers who are truly acting like these same: Antifa, BLM, Seattle, Portland, Minneapolis, ad naseum ad finiteness , —so-called peaceful demonstrators all unified for Biden/Harris, nobody forced them out there to do what they have been, and continue to do—-they themselves acting upon their own sinful lusts and hatred, but as ultimately believing the lie of the Devil— is Satan not the Father of all same?! These immature, vicious, yes even loco, dear ones, though, as you and I, human beings on this Earth, souls created in the image of God Almighty, have been radicalized by the awful fruit of, just to mention one sower of such evil seed—Saul Alinsky—- are responsible for the ongoing division which permanent has marked an scarred our cities and their psyches; they are responsible, for this by their actions and words, but more so by their belief and philosophies to which they adhere and, more dangerously so, have acted upon!!
Secondly, that he has/is himself becoming more of a politician himself interested in/motivated by Biden/HARRIS (again, one heartbeat away....) who can, supposedly coalesce differing and disparate groups together under one unified tent, banner ( fill in here) unto the goal of a utopia to be realized under Democratic, liberal , progressive ideology leading to political machinations thus ultimately yielding administrative fiat, forget policy—- wake up: this by definition is Antichrist, is it not!
But, then this is all but politics and Joel Hunter, yourself, myself and so many the multitudes of professing Christians have become way too involved in the politics of this world. Remember. Please, who of all so-called Dividers came to Earth to be/was/is the Great Divider—our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ Who came to this world, this same world in which we now live and breathe and have our Being “not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance...brought a sword (eg. to cleave, to divide)....”
The question then becomes and is one of not politics and division which never in the history of the world has brought healing, but only division and destruction and death; but, of True Christianity, Faith in Jesus Christ Who is the One True God in human flesh And Only Redeemer of mankind through the saving power, life changing power of His Precious and Holy shed blood upon the Cross of Calvary sealed for eternity past with His Glorious Resurrection from the grace and now seated at the Right Hand of God the Father forever ,waiting longingly and lovingly for us, His Children, to for God’s sake, please, to get our act, as true born-again Believers, together here on this Earth into which we were born by God’s ordaining foreknowledge, whole there is yet time and be the testimony and witness He longs for us to become; dividers, through the Power of the Gospel—the one and only Gospel , Gospel of Jesus Christ, Savior if the World, of those who believe and receive Him as Savior , then Lord of our lives, not some theoretically-sociologically man-created social gospel (another topic for another time) but the only remedy to the ills of this age—the Great Physician, truly divides as He says “suffer the little children to come unto Me!” And, not causing them “to stumble...(knowing full well the penalty of same by God’s Spoken Holy Word) as you are continuing to do through the fallacious, yay dangerous promulgation of support for Biden/HARRIS—/ for so many obvious reasons! I plead with you my Brethren cease from your misinformed and misguiding ways. The division you falsely , erroneously accuse President Trump and his Administration of is just that , and more so as causing little ones—Believers—-to stumble is wrong, and damaging; but, the failure on your part, my part, our part as those who profess Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord, true born-again Believers, as opposed to those by nomenclature and a false sense of goodness inherent in man as so many believe, to justly, savingly divide by rightly dividing the Word of Truth and as our Savior did to divide by His Gospel in thought, word, and deed is, indeed, shameful for to become inebriated ( yes, correct, apt word choice here!) in this world’s system ( eg.politics and actively working to merge our faith into politics—“an all compassing ethics of faith”) is shameful to our testimony, more so to Our Savior and Lord!
I plead with you to stop and consider how damaging your political actions are to the cause and people of Christ, and to those unbelievers who see and hear and know how and what we are like: many times and sadly so myself no different from them. How then are they to be saved sans the sword of the Gospel of Jesus Christ whiche divides asunder the wound of which may only be healed by same!! Please!!
In Christ with love,
Dr Ronny Welborn EdD, HCLE
Pro-life evangelicals for abortion. What a contradiction. It's especially frustrating since Trump has been the most pro-life president ever. So these people are in bed with the same people who say that if a baby survives an abortion (attempted murder), he or she should be left to die.
It is the goats being separated from the sheep. That’s what this season is about. The goats and wolves have hidden long enough amongst the sheep. Now the LORD is exposing them one by one. After which He will make a spectacle of them because Donald Trump will win while they in return will get the due judgement for those who mislead the sheep unless they repent.